Joe-Con,... A retrospective. Thoughts on 08.

[kingofpain26]

well, with all the grumbling and griping about the loss of the Maulers, I decided to crunch all the info I got from the various websites about what they loved or hated about the con, and decided to post it here> SO that way both the club and its members can mull about what they want, or what works and what does not.

Note: The majority of these request are NOT my opinion, but the collected thoughts and feelings of all the people who attended, and posted their opinions on this website, and sights like Joedios, Joebattlelines, Hisstank, Yojoe.com, Joecustoms, and joesightings.

1) THE GOOD: (Things that should stay the same)

a) Seminars:
Everyone seemed to enjoy the various seminars, especially this year, as there was so much to do, most people didnt have to leave the con at all. This should stay the same from now on, if not get better. There was tons of things to do for RAH collectors, maybe a few more can be added for our 12 inch brothers (like the retrospective presentations that James did in 06)

We could also add a seminar for children (or adults with childlike hearts.) I have a teaching background, and would love to teach a simple Diorama seminar, in conjunction with the various Customizing gurus we have with us in the club.

b) the figures:
The general consensus is that we like the figures your cranking out (minus the handful of naysayers) so Keep up the good work!

c) The Dealer's Room:
keep up the diversity, this year was great!!!

d) The Guests:
again, a great job keep em comming! Larry Hamma should be an every year guest, along with Herb Trimpe and Ron WIngham. if Possible, you could ask Mark M.D. Bright (G.I.Joe 93-107) or Mike Zeck (various covers of both the marvel and DD run)to come, as well as some of the old Voice Actors.

e) Photography:
Everyone loves seeing their picture up on the website. (especially Tazzmans eagar, yet goofy grin!)

f) Cosplay:
It gets better year after year. AT this point it has grown to the point that it should be made into an event in and of itself. There should definetly be a costume contest next year.(someone has to make a costume better that Kuukuusan!!!)

G) Charity event:
Many people liked the idea of Giving back to the community. (Several Joe boards have a Toys for Tots drive). Could we make this official, possibly add a feature that, when we renew, we could donate a dollar.


2) THE BAD: (things that should be tweaked)

a)Guest Treatment:
A whole group of us noticed that a few of the guest were treated as "regular Joes" at the dinner, and we (both the club and us attendees) should have been mindfull of this. Kudos to our members who took care of them so that they had a table.

b) Registration/ Club Store:
Most of us grumble about this, but understand that due to the number of people attending, little can be done about the wait. a suggesttoon that was emailed to me was: Instead of full time volenteers, maybe you could start recruiting part time volenteers, a few members would love to help out at the club store for an hour, or help register for an hour, or help with set up, especially if it means their insentive is that they can buy THEIR items first. (a lot of other conventions do this, ANime Boston usually offers this insentive for part time volenteers)

c)Food Selection:
Although a lot of people like the Buffet style format, Several people do not, and perfer the dinner format. and a LOT of people had issue with the type of food in 07 (06's menu was GREAT, but thats New Orleans for you). maybe this could be addressed somehow. unfortunetly, I dont see how, as the Majority seem to like the buffet.

also, some people have addressed a need/ request for a breakfast, possibly a continental breakfast. an interesting point. I worked at several Boston COnvention & Hospitality Centers during my Security career (Hynes, Boston, Bayside, Four Seasons hotel) and noticed most of the seminars and conventions offered a continental breakfast (except Wizardworld and Creation Star Trek). I dont know if it is a price issue, but Maybe its worth looking into, even offering it at an additional price package?

d) Hotel Liason:
Can we appoint an official Hotel Liason, so that when the Hotel doesnt accomidate us to our liking, we could address it without pulling Brian or Lanny away from other projects? (like the lack of tables, Hotel Employees pilfering The Parachute figures, or other various issues.)

3) THE UGLY (things that should be removed)

a) AFA at the con.
yes, I know they're technically a vendor, but a lot of collectors reacted negatively to their prescence, stating that itposed a negative, scalper, flavor to the collectors who actually play with their toys.

b)NO MORE WRESTLERS!!!!!!
If we do add a real life person to the mythos, please let it be either a person who has a direct connection to G.I.Joe, or a Military Connection.

[Maxtype]

I'd like to echo kop's thoughts here.....with an emphasis on getting rid of AFA!

I think the AFA is an insult to collecting in general,and against the whole spirit of why I collect toys and G.I. Joe in particular!

[Southzen]

I can agree with most of that. Although, I don't want to see anymore wrestlers KoP; I surely don't want to see BigLob before MANY other great characters. But get your pain on wanting him made. I am dieing for a full aqautic set with Eels, Torpedo, Wet Suit, Deep Six, Cutter and a WHALE.

[kingofpain26]

ok,... let me reitereate:

these are Not MY thoughts,.. these thoughts come from,.. well... YOU!

If anyone noticed, I put up "things that were Great/ Sucked about the Joe con" threads in virtually every Joe boards out there, and a few non joe boards. What I did was read YOUR responces, along with other threads started by you guys relating to the con, and crunched some numbers. heres what came out:

Seminars: although a good amount of you missed some seminars due to eating out away from the con, and being late due to late night drinking,.. the majority (over 95%) Loved all the seminars, and had no real complaints against them. the remaining 5% griped only about lack of info on some round tables, or had an issue about not having anything for children other than the toy table, or activities for their wives. A large group even speculated in teaching a seminar similar to what Alyosha did. (or wanted Alyosha to come back, as it inspired them to start customizing.

Figure sets: about 80% loved the choice in the figure sets, boith 3 3/4 and 12 inch. the sigma six fans were happy that they were included in the exclusives (but were sad that this could potentially be the last time), and I got NO gripes at all from the AT collectors.
15% had gripes about the tanks set, and the remaining 5% were mostly mad about not being able to get the exclusives.

Dealers room: I got absolutely no complaints about the dealer's room at all, except, maybe prices and lack of money.

Guests: People were THRILLED about the choice of guests, even the Piper Naysayers still got autographs and shook his hand when they saw him. Less than 1% were outright dissappointed in the guests (just one guy, really)

Photography: With the massive amounts of requests for pictures of different seminars, and events, plus the hits on the Club's webiste on the official pics. 100% of people wanted keepsakes, or memorabilia

Cosplay: although only 40 % of people actually dressed up at the con, a whopping 90% loved the costumes (the Cobra La group, Flash, The "Outbacks, The Comic 3-pack, and Cobra commander were a hit) compared to last year, the number of costumes and military dress doubled, from both the 12 inch collectors and the 3 3/4 collectors. at this point, several people suggested that we turn the cosplay into a costume contest. which is why I suggested it.

Charity events: with almost every joe board having a Toys for Tots campaign, and the charity even that Larry Hama & Cabanajack had, plus the Club's charity event at the dinner, we could make the charity campaigns more streamlined by making it formal, and getting non attendees involved.

The dinner: there were a lot of gripes about this, to almost split the persentage down the middle (about 59- 41 %) many people had issue with the construction of the dinner , they perfered the more formal style to the buffet style (although the majority liked the buffet)<also the choice of food was an issue to many.
but the biggest gipe were the lack of tables. almost a third of all attendees didnt have anywhere to sit,.. and this unfortunetly included our honored guests and thair families. this was a BIG mistake, and it made both the club (for not having reserved seats) and the attendees (for not giving up a table) look really bad. and the apparent creators of the 4 inch genre should have been treated better.

also, although a persentage of attendees didnt bother to get up beofre 9 am, most attendees were up at the crack of dawn (I personaly was down in the lobby with my laptop at 5 am, and there were several people downstairs with me..) A continental breackfast was suggested to ive an alternative for the pricey hotel food, and to feed our overwoked volenteers, and also the "early Birds" who are up.

Registration/ hotel liason: this is an every year gripe, but this year was more significant, as several people missed out on exclusives and eventa due to the long lines. I added in the suggestion of part time volenteers, which would:

1) Ease up the workload of other attendees, so that they can have some fun as well
2) allow more participation from members in the club
3) allow the club heads to focus on big problems, as the smaller ones would be covered.

it also allows the club to pool from the massive talents and abilities of the members, several of us are organizers, Law Enforcement, Artists, teachers, and even medical personnel. This could help out on all aspects of the club.


Now the last two people were quite passionate about:

99% of attendees HATED the fact that AFA was there. ipitomizing the group that doesnt see the joy of collection, but dollar signs. it also fueled botht he waward attendees and a large number of dealers to inflate their prices unnessisarily. I mean, the jetpacks troopers and Piper were selling for 40 and 25 respectively, and by Saturday, there were sold out, and boxed up by AFA and selling for TWICE that much. that kind of greed disgusts most collectors. (the same way people get disgusted about Ebay gougers.

a better alternative could have been that guy (who posts ads in every newsletter) who insures collections for damage and loss. That would have not just been more helpful, but also beneficial to people who live in hurricane, Wildfire, flood, and tornado country.

Lastly,.. yes ,.. Piper was a ht at the con.

BUT before the con,.. MOST OF YOU HATED THE IDEA OF ANOTHER WRESTLER BEING A FIGURE. even after the con, people are still complaining that Piper has no real place within the mythos. Slaughter was already in the comics, cartoon, and was a spokesperson for awhile.
Also, with already a real live person in Joe (Fridge) and the many other real life military persons who would fit a lot better, a non military ficiona wrestler just made too many people do a "Huh!???!!!"

[skarapz]

i want more wrestling figures, they are good guys, and can transition very well into mythos

[kingofpain26]

yes, I factored in the neysayers as well as the "Im for it' people. just the responces I got, most people were against the wrestlers, and would perfer a more military connection, or even pull the Fridge back into the mythos.

Some of these findings, were edged by just a small margin. while others had a large sway in one direction.

[kingofpain26]

to breakdown the numbers :

I talked, or recieved opininons from, roughly 145 people, this was factored from:

1) Talking to people JUST after the con
2) recieveing input from Various boards
3) people who emailed me directly
4) Observations from within the Con itself

I would say there is a 15% margin of error, as some people may be "multiples" (People who post on different boards with different screen names, or people I talked to in person, then posted later)

also, there are people who gave their opinion, who were hard to read, as they either didnt care either way, or allowed personal biases to cloud their assesment (Ex: Alyosha did do a very informative seminar for people new to customizing, but some people ignored that point, and discussed his personality (which had nothing to do with the seminar). Same issue when it came to the Club itself.

another point was the majority of people polled are RAH fans, so not enough info on the 12 inch collectors was gathered, and their opinions were only factored in when addressing the con in general.

Lastly, a few people polled spent the weekend so drunk, that they have no idea what the hell happened during the day at all!!!!

Note: Anytime I write "The General consensus" that is usually to denote that 2/3 or more people (90 to 12 people) were in favor/ disfavor of this.


anyway here are the points:

1) Club store/ registration:

A) about 130 people hate the long lines and disorganization, and the rest really didnt care, as their experience went smoothly.
This data was clouded by the fact that although they hated the wait, it allowed people to chit chat and joke with people making new friends.

B) the lack of product (No Con tanks, Limited PPDs, and selling out of the Jetpack set and Piper Figures) really bummed out a lot of people. Over half (90 people or so, even the ones who got thiers or one for a friend) says that the Club shouls up their production rate, however a small percentage (18 people) understood that some things sell, others dont, or collectibility of a limited figure and agreed with the clubs limited status, and another small percentage (the rest) got their figures, and could care less.

C) These ones were left out, as Im still getting data on it, but a growing number of people are asking for online registration, and even a pre-order of Con exclusives for those who paid for a COn set. another suggestion was given to seperate the registration of AT and RAH collectors (But I personally felt that would cause more confusion, as they have a hard enough time now with alphabetical order)

Also, the Mauler debacle has send several data skeweing, as people suddenly spitting out hatred, but sifting past the rediculousness, a lot of people are now asking NOT to solicit an item until a VISUAL confirmation of a completed product is done. (which is funny, cause thats what they do with the con sets anyway) Or to have updates on items already "promised" (such as the DTC wave 4)

lastly, I kinda left out the squibbles about high prices (as I felt people would squibble about price even if the figures were slightly above TRU price). However, I am crunching numbers about eliminating some costs by getting rid of expensive packaging. (ex: The Moth sets could have sold cheaper in a generic white box, like the Inferno BATS did) or keeping the special packinging, but having the artwork available as an art print, so that the artist could sign it (many people had nothing for Larry Hama, Herb Trimpe, Larry Selman and Ron Wingham to sign)


2) Figures/ Exclusive items:

a) RAH sets:
the general consensus (2/3 of people) is that people like the figures, especially the Army Builders. however, the numbers could be broken down even more about smaller quibbles, such as some people didnt like the choice of Villans (Dreadnoks, Cobra's Most Wanted, Clay Moore), a LOT of people Dont like the choice of Weapons (about 100 people), Especially this year's set, which people outright hated, plus the lack of a Flash Helmet; and a few people didnt like the female vipers (especially this issue with the hats).
Then there are the manufacturing issues. some people got figures with arms reversed.

The free figures got mostly "Yays", with a few naysayers.

B) Live Exclusives:

The Piper figure got the oddest results, 90% of people hated the idea when it was announced, and dropped to about 60% when the figure was revealed. people liked meeting Piper in person, but still don't include The figure into their own Joe Mythos, just keep it as a collectible.

after the con. about 78% of people did buy and like the figure, but still want a more Military related figure next year. a lot of people requested R.Lee Emory (the Drill seargent from Full Metal Jacket), with minor suggestions of Mr. T, The Fridge, Stallone (for Rambo or Rocky) or a real life honored soldier.

Then there are the small percentage of people who could care less either way, as theyre gonna sell the figure anyway.

C) vehicles:
BEFORE the mauler debacle, the general consensus was split right down the middle (68-61) with the rest not really caring. peole either liked the choice of vehicles, or hated them. Virtually ALL people did request larger vehicle releases (like the Mauler, Hovercraft, or ... the Flagg)

However AFTER the debacle, the data skewed to the left, ans people lost faith either in the CLubs ability to release the larger vehicles, or the survivalbility of the Molds after 25 years.

remaining data that wasnt presented was the feasability of the Club offering vehicle parts, smaller accessories and weapons, or the small playsets. ALso the light appeasement of the Sigma Six line (just a taste with the parachute figures) stung with a few people. And also,.. a few people commented on some of the volenteers lack of knowledge of the Joe product, or lack of customer service skills, and had bad experiences with some staff, However, most people thought the Volenteers did a great job. a Suggestion from several people was to offer part time volenteers, so that people know the merchandice, could help out during high traffic times, and yet, still enjoy the con.

3) Convention itself:

a) Location:
the choice of location seemed to be cut into thirds. One third Loved Atlanta, with all the ammenities nearby, another third hated Atlanta, with the tourist traps and crackheads, and the last third would attend the Con if they decided to have it on the moon!

b) Hotel:
Most people only used the hotel for sleep (if they even did that) and really didnt pay attention to the ammenities, However, a smaller, yet much more vocal group had several issues, such as Room temperature, price of in house food, lack of breakfast, rude or undertrained employees, the hotel construction starting way too early, Employees taking the club parachute figures, Room access dispite a do not disturbed sign, the supposed "free" internet service costing 12 bucks a day, and my own personal issue with lack of medical staff.

b) Seminars
there was a big difference between 2006 (which only had a handfull of activities) and 2007, (which had every minute filled with something to do) so aside from lunch, you really didnt have to leave the Con for anything.

The general consensus was that they liked the activities and panels (although the same consensus admitted that they didnt attend EVERY panel) they thoroughly enjoyed the Hasbro and guest panels, especailly the Larry Hama Issue #21 walkthrough, most people who were new to customizing enjoyed Alyosha's and Hasbro's customizing seminars, the two kids I talked to loved the drawing seminar (would like to get more info on thses).

However, the Devils Due seminar got tainted when Hama let the cat out of the bag in another seminar that Storm Shadow was cancelled, giving fuel to the rumor that DD lost the Joe licence. and a lot of people really don't like the direction of the new comic anyway, so that also skewed the data.

Requests were made for more seminars on customizing (vehicles and dioramas), to bring back the seminar on the history of G.I.Joe and the original collectors club, and to ask the club to offer the mejbers a chance to run a seminar.

B) Dealers room

of couse people loved the dealers room (89% loved it, with 9% disliking it, thinking the priced were too high, and the remaining 1% unimpressed either way) with Marauder John being the big hit at the con, with a few people mentioning others by name , like Joearmory, Armaggedon toys, and that guy in the front selling whole vehicles for 5 bucks. People both loved and hated the Hasbro booth (Loved the chance to see all the sigma six toys, but hated the fact we may never see them) and got on average 3 packs of those free cards per person. even the few 12 inch and sigma six collectors I talked to thought it was a good outing.

two Big issues came up in this polling:

1: AFA

only about 10 percent of people liked AFA being there meaning their collections would be profitable, or of museum quality finds, where a WHoppin 88% hated the idea of AFA at the collectros club, Mainly because AFA's involvement usually ment the figures would be priced out of their comfortable range of paying.

about 4 people didnt know who the hell AFA even were! (one guy mixed them up with the FCC!)

2: Price Gouging
people were pissed that the piper and jetpack figures that the club sold on friday, were being gouged at twice the price a day later. also, a lot of price gougin went into accessories and vehicle parts. the sellers figured that if the toy was in demand, they could charge more, selling a simple hat or vehicle part for as high as 7 bucks! And this went on to the dead end of the con (no price change even though it was Sunday at 3pm)

C) Guests:

SO far prople generally loved the guests, even Piper, who was very accomidating and down to earth (dispite being wired the whole time on Red Bull, I thought he was going to explote!) They loved the artists, especially Hamas breakdown artistically of his #21 comic, and Wingham's empahsis on artists to Learn to draw from real life, and stop with all the computer enhancements. only a few poepl could care less either way.

Requests were made for Cartoon Voice actors (who could be double billed for both Joecon and Botcon), Upcomming Movie actors, Hasbro toy designers, and even real life soldiers.

D) Contests:
people generally enjoyed the contests, especially the Film festival and the diorama/ frankenjoe entries (which is why more seminars on customizing wrer requested, to add more submissions)

However, the Know Joe contest brought a lot of controversay, as a more formal way of answereing and questions were suggested. (Me personally , I think people just took this one too seriously, and got "clicky" when the collectors are broken down to their individual website groups, which is sad considering people are members of multiple groups)

E) the "courtesy room"

general consensus:
CHANGE THE DARN TAPE ONCE IN AWHILE!!!!!!!
A lot of people were irritated in the ONE choice of movie for three days, and suggested between the tapes of original commercials of the AT and RAHG joes, and the tons of episodes of Sunbow, DIC, G.I.Joe Extreme, and the three animated movies, ther should be more variety in the viewing choice. ALso the frequency of the room being replenished was an issue.

there was a large amount of opinions surrounded around this last point:

4) The DInner: Part one:

a) Casino night:

people generally enjoyed the Casino night, and liked the return of actual money being used, athough a few people disliked it, stating it gave people a chance to pool their resources and outbid the single people. A lot of people thought the Joe cards being used at Casino night were a great touch! and Bingo night was also a favorite (the ones who participated)

b) Cosplay:

again, people enjoyed seeing the people dress up as their favorite character and even suggested that we make it part of the contests. only a small persentage (less than 15 people) didnt really care either way, One person though they were all wierd, which is kinda an oxymoron in a Toy convention. (Although Kuukuusan really needed a belt on several moments)
Oh, and Dark Horse, I dont know if you realized it, a lot of people thought YOU were in costume!

c) Food

honestly,.. people hated the food.

Less than 10% liked the food choices, even the dessert. and some people thought the food was outright nasty.
also, the format was an issue, which brings me to:

5) Dinner Part Two: Format

a) Buffet vs Sit Down Dinner:
there is a growning number of people who want the dinnder to go bact to a more formal format, althogh the majority (63%) like the buffet style format.

b) Seating:
We don't know who was responcible, the club or the hotel,.. but over 75% of people complained about the lack of chairs/ Tables for people to sit, and a HUGE percentage had an issue with the Guests not having seats (although a large persentage didnt even know that was an issue until my posts) Definetly someting that should be kept mindful of.

c) Auction

this data was all over the place to the point I didnt add the results. a few people though it should have been done during the dinner, others didnt like the idea of groups ganging up on the auction offerings, some just did not care, or were tired by that point, and anothe rgroup of people like the idea of the items being donated by various vendors.

6) Miscelaneous:

A) Pre Convention Tours
the people who went were thrilled at these tours, but thought the Coke Museum sucked because they didnt give free samples.

b) Non con activities:
a lot of this data icouldnt crunch, for the small numbers of people involved but :

1) the online board meed and drink
2) The Hama/ Cabanajack party/ fundraiser awareness
3) The Crappy Figure Brigade Meeting
4) the random "Drunken Nights out"

...were enjoyed by the ones who attended.

c) Joe Boards

It was suggested that the individual boards that the attendee represents should be posted on their badges (JBL got around this by offering stickers and T-shirts) a suggestion was made for a "Sign Up" tabe to be manned Hourly by a random memebr of a board, to boost membership (as soem peole are unaware of other boards and what they offer)

well,.. thats it in a nutshell.

[Smokescreen]

after the con. about 78% of people did buy and like the figure, but still want a more Military related figure next year. a lot of people requested R.Lee Emory (the Drill seargent from Full Metal Jacket), with minor suggestions of Mr. T, The Fridge, Stallone (for Rambo or Rocky) or a real life honored soldier.

I just wanted to make a statement on this... I'm pretty firm that I will NOT be going next year, due to family vacation, vacation for anniversary, and other matters, but if they had R. Lee Ermy there, I would seriously rethink my stance. That would kick so much @$$ and would lend so much to the 3 3/4" world, it's not funny.


R. Lee Ermy in '08!!!

[Rockshield]

I just wanted to make a statement on this... I'm pretty firm that I will NOT be going next year, due to family vacation, vacation for anniversary, and other matters, but if they had R. Lee Ermy there, I would seriously rethink my stance.

He wouldnt go for the Joes or the JoeBros... but for R. Lee Ermy.... oh yeah.

[Southzen]

I just wanted to make a statement on this... I'm pretty firm that I will NOT be going next year, due to family vacation, vacation for anniversary, and other matters, but if they had R. Lee Ermy there, I would seriously rethink my stance. That would kick so much @$$ and would lend so much to the 3 3/4" world, it's not funny.


R. Lee Ermy in '08!!!

I am still on the fence whether I go or not; I will most likely make the reservations and such just in case I go. Most of it has to do with location of the convention. If it is not someplace I care to vacation (because I would like to go somewhere that I can spend a week or more doing other fun stuff with my wife than what Yawn-lanta had to offer), I will most likely not attend.

[cmderinchief]

I just wanted to make a statement on this... I'm pretty firm that I will NOT be going next year, due to family vacation, vacation for anniversary, and other matters, but if they had R. Lee Ermy there, I would seriously rethink my stance. That would kick so much @$$ and would lend so much to the 3 3/4" world, it's not funny.


R. Lee Ermy in '08!!!

I am still on the fence whether I go or not; I will most likely make the reservations and such just in case I go. Most of it has to do with location of the convention. If it is not someplace I care to vacation (because I would like to go somewhere that I can spend a week or more doing other fun stuff with my wife than what Yawn-lanta had to offer), I will most likely not attend.

Bummer, no Jay, possibly no Jason and SKARAPZ coming in late. At least I know Adroq and Tazzz will be there.....hopefully.

I can see why do many people skip this. I can see many other vacations more attractive than just shacking up in a pricey hotel for a weekend to look at toys. For me, this IS my vacation. Yeah, that might sound odd, but when you travel as much as I do, anytime you don't have to do something for business is considered a vacation. As it looks now, I am in Toronto later this month, New York in Feb and Chicago in March. So where ever they put the con, I am sure I will be more than ready for some PTO come June/July.

Right now, my hat is in the ring. The wifey wants to come to. Sorry guys, I doubt we'll see sistainchief, but she did want me to say she did enjoy herself.

[kingofpain26]

Bummer, no Jay, possibly no Jason and SKARAPZ coming in late. At least I know Adroq and Tazzz will be there.....hopefully.

what am I, Chopped Liver?

[madmac41]

Just one to add to the hotel gripes $23 a day parking.

[Rockshield]

Bummer, no Jay, possibly no Jason and SKARAPZ coming in late. At least I know Adroq and Tazzz will be there.....hopefully.

what am I, Chopped Liver?

apparently you and I were just eye candy for the old chief... gone and forgotten... and to think, the "ambassador to the Red Sox Nation for Indy" would forget his brothers in red so easily...

[kingofpain26]

yeah.,...


Well,. thats to the incredible backlash that I got fromt he Joecustoms crew,.. I am redoing this project, as people claim that all my info and methods were inaccurate and "pointless"

..not to mention no one from Joesightings responded at all... and people from Hisstank think I work for Fun Publications!!!

(Note that most of this is comming from the CC haters, and when I asked someone to help me redo it,.. I get no responce)

but anyway,... any input would be appreciated.