Joe*Battlelines

[Recondo]

I agree that a more scientific debate/vote would be very interesting and fun too man. I am actually right there with you. The problem is that if you're an intelligent person (which I know you are) & if you have any experience with the goings-on of intenet discussion and/or "voting", in the end, like Yoho Joe said, popularity is ALWAYS going to creep in.

We're all humans.. it simply can't be avoided.



Would it be nice? Sure. Is it realistic? not in a social forum such as this man. You know this. C'mon, we've already seen a few "winners" that won purely because of popularity.. and in past contests it was always evident as well.

It simply can't be controlled... nor can "favor" votes be controlled, or campaigning, or multiple votes from a single person, etc, etc. I am not saying that ANY of this is going on here.. I am just saying that getting frustrated or upset about it is a waste of energy man. Ya know?


As far as this thread goes, I really don't think Scarlett is winning on pure popularity. If she were almost any other female character, I'd perhaps agree with you... but not in this case. Still, ARE at least a small % of her votes "popularity" votes? Of course. But I'd wager that almost every character is going to get a couple of these from their fans... even within Outback's 4 votes.

I'd say that if you want a purely scientific poll/contest that debates ONLY skills/attributes/experience (et al), then you'd probably do better to hold a private one and hand pick the people you'd like to participate.. people you think will set their favorites aside when deciding. But even then man, there is no guarantee that a popularity vote or 2 won't sneak in.. why? Again, we're humans.
_________________
8/25/07.. my son Seth attended his very first full-pads football practice at the age of 8. I can now die a happy man.


Nemo me impune lacessit

[Smokescreen]

[Smokescreen]

Oh, and Outback takes this. At best, she's a ninja. At worst, she has a CROSSBOW. Outback has a gun. That shoots more than one bullet.

I'd say what probably happens in this one is that Cobra gets sick and tired of both of them waiting the other to make a move and carpet bombs the whole place.

But, in luei of that, Outback wins.
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Makes you want to taste the rainbow!



The Heralded Hall of Hunger

[Jmacq1]

Ehn, I regularly debate on a message board that has a pretty detailed set of "rules" to follow when doing "versus" threads. Anyone who doesn't follow 'em basically gets ignored. I guess I've been spoiled since for the most part those rules prevent it from becoming a simple popularity contest and people are pretty much required to actually think about how they think things would break down and be prepared to support their opinions with facts. Sure you can just toss out the "Billy Bob Wins Because He Is Teh Kewlest!" posts, but nobody pays any attention to them.

But again, I guess I'm spoiled.

And no, I don't think Scarlett's winning -solely- on popularity. But it's a big factor. It also doesn't help that with all the "first string" Joes, we've simply had more opportunity to "see" (in comics, toons, etc...) and "hear" (via filecards and whatnot) what they're really capable of, as opposed to a lot of Joes that aren't really in the "spotlight" nearly as often, so there's much less to draw on. I've always envisioned most (but not all, see my Chuckles arguments) of the Joe team to be extremely competent soldiers that also have certain "specialties" on top of that. Very few of them should be (in my opinion) pigeonholed into only one specific role and that role only(particularly those that have "Infantry" as a primary or secondary specialty).
That's why I take issue when people say things like "Airborne can't jump out of a plane or helicopter in this scenario, so he's out of his element in this fight" or "Outback is just a glorified wilderness guide" or even "Beachhead is just a Ranger."

To use this match in specific as an example: No one's denying that Scarlett's a better hand to hand fighter than Outback (myself included). But do we really know for sure that Outback isn't stealthy enough to hide from/ambush her? Or that he isn't perceptive enough to notice her before she can ambush him (particularly when at least one of his filecards makes note of how perceptive and alert he is)? Why do we seem to assume he can't shoot straight enough to hit her, regardless of whether he's in a jungle or a junkyard? Or that it's going to be easy for her to get close enough to actually use her martial arts prowess on him or even to get a clear, undetected shot from her crossbow (or rifle) at him?

The answer really boils down to "We've seen more of Scarlett and she's got a powerful "Character Shield" as the team's foremost resident uber-babe and most iconic female." So she comes across as a "do it all" kind of character because well...we've -seen- her do it all. Meanwhile a lot of secondary/tertiary characters may have only appeared in a couple issues of the comic, or one or two episodes of the 'toon, so we simply haven't always seen what they're all fully capable of, unlike the folks that show up in almost every issue/episode.

So I guess in some cases it's not so much "popularity" as "visibility." Does that make sense? If Sneak-Peek had figured prominently in 100+ issues of G.I. Joe comics, we'd probably think he was a super-badass, too.

And I'm not really angry or anything (despite how my posts may sound), or at least it's not like I'm losing sleep over it. I've been having fun with this for the most part. I'm just a little disappointed that in a lot of cases the process didn't work out the way I'd hoped/thought it would.

[Smokescreen]

I get what you're saying man, about how you should have a full-blown debate, defending your positions and whatnot. But, this is just for fun. Some like to do that, some don't. The people that do like that sort of thing, have hopefully bit on this, and in good nature, debated their side. But some people don't know how to put it down in writing, or they feel they aren't good enough about describing things, or they're afraid they're going to feel lynch-mobbed for picking one character and not another. So they don't say anything.

You said something about how people are oversimplifying characters, and how you take issue with it. Man, this fanbase is SO spread out and so diverse, that different characters mean different things to different people. Someone that doesn't take a lot of stock in Sneak Peek, for example, just know that he died. Well, if he died, he must have not been pretty good at his job. Others might think because he was a forward observer (LRRP, right?), he must have been one bad arse son of a gun. They can go into detail about what he's been trained to do and how to do it, because they have a connection with that character for whatever reason. And, that's their right. If they can justify someone beating someone else, then so be it, you know?

Listen, everyone's entitled to pick who they want. So, everyone, keep going. Like I said, I hope you guys write down why you are picking who you are...just because really that's the fun of the game.
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Makes you want to taste the rainbow!



The Heralded Hall of Hunger

[Yoho Joe]

You have a good argument, but it cuts both ways. Sure, Outback might be perceptive enough, or stealthy enough, or accurate enough, but we just don't know. Maybe he's not. I totally agree with you on some of the matches, but in this particular one, I think Scarlett has always been portrayed as one of the premier soldiers on the team. Your right in that all the characters are highly trained elite troops, but that goes for the 'popular' characters too. The equipment arguement is a sticky one. I don't view Scarlett as just having a crossbow here. She's always been portrayed as proficient with small arms. Her new sculpt figs all came with a pistol. I like Outback, but I still think he goes down here. If it were in the middle of a forrest, maybe not, but here I think so.
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. . . and a bottle of rum!

Voting now open for the Create-a-Character contest #8

[Recondo]

[Smokescreen]

Of course we're cool, man.

I just want to stomp anything out before it gets blown up and out of proportion by someone else, and it snowballs is all. Know what I mean?
_________________
Makes you want to taste the rainbow!



The Heralded Hall of Hunger

[Recondo]

We're good. Hugs & hands pounds all around (as Stuart Scott says).
_________________
8/25/07.. my son Seth attended his very first full-pads football practice at the age of 8. I can now die a happy man.


Nemo me impune lacessit

[PepsiJedi]

The vote's gonna go to Scarlet. I know how ... loved she is.

I myself voted for outback and I'll tell ya why.

Sure they're both sneaky. They're both smart (( You don't survive in the wild by being a moron. Inspite of what city folk think))

They both have tactics that could come in handy.

but in the end. for THIS ONE, the evenly skilled, evenly sneaky chars would eventually face off.

I'd see Outback having the patience to wait scarlet out. He'd set up all quick like something to lure her, be it that WHITE SHIRT or something, to draw her in, while he's rolled in mud and is hiding some place high or the like. Sure Scarlets sneaky but if you pick a spot and know the routes in, there's only so many ways you can get there. While scarlett can do this too, Outback is used to waiting days and days in the wild. Scarlett would eventually go to him. In this.. he snipes her with his rifle and she's out.

If by chance they met up hand to hand.. I'd still give it to outback.

Some people claim she's a Ninja and I just poo on that. She wasn't "Ninjafied" till decades after her first appearance and that was just because she was SE"s girlfriend. She never went off and got trained by a ninja clan. She's as much a Ninja as Stalker is.... So that Ninja stuff is right out. It's revisionist and a late addition that didn't really make sense in the best of times.

I WILL Say she's good in hand to hand. Martial arts? Sure. I'll give her a black belt in karate or the like. Judo. Tae Kwon Do... what ever. but she aint' a ninja, but she still kicks butt.

So they come across one another. Scarlett having slightly faster reflexes brings up her cross bow, shoots. Outback brings up his rifle and the bolt slams into it. He pivots and lays down suppressing fire with the rifle as he moves closer.

Scarlet's fast so she dives behind a car and draws her wrist pistol.

Outback moves forward and draws his knife. Leaping over the car they exchange fire. Scarlet's two shots are fired and Outback empties his clip. Both are good troops so I'll give them both a hit.

Thing is Scarlets shooting a back up pistol and outback is still shooting a rifle. His bullet hit scarlet and slams her down. Her's hits him and staggers him. He drops the spent rifle and wades on in there. Scarlet does a kip up and starts her martial arts. Outback wades in with his knife. The fight is brutal and short but Outback far out mussels her, and has alot more body mass to suck up the damage. In the end a good knife shot (( Watch "The Hunted" to see how Outback would Knife fight... and sneak around in the woods and what not)) and scarlet drops.

Out back has quite a few bruises.. took a bullet but staggers out of the junk yard to visit the medic before going to the next round.

AFTER retrieving his still shining white shirt.

[Recondo]

You go girl.
_________________
8/25/07.. my son Seth attended his very first full-pads football practice at the age of 8. I can now die a happy man.


Nemo me impune lacessit